God does not punish

[Truthsayer]

I am a true believer in reincarnation and 'second chances'. It is said that, "Fate guides the willing and drags the unwilling". I don't like the word 'fate' as it sounds so harsh and final. I prefer the word 'Karma', as with karma free will still applies.

Those who deny or refuse to face their karma may feel that they being 'dragged', by the hair, kicking and screaming through life, forced to face certain fears and truths about themselves they'd rather not. Through their own denial or refusal, they are not being punished by any outside force, least of all God. Moreso, they are punishing themselves.

We are our own judge and jury, God is our witness. Since no one can lie against God's witness, this truth we must face, and facing the truth about oneself can be the most frightening, difficult and painful thing we will ever have to do in life. It is through the facing of the truth about ourselves that I define the concept of "hell". The longer one denies or refuses it, the longer one remains there. God does not punish us for our actions, but in some extreme cases, may God have mercy.

[Husker Du]

Hmmm, I've always been back and forth with this.  For a long time I thought "How could god punish and be angry?!  He is all loving."  Then again I'm all over the place with faith.

The way I tend to look at it (when I'm into faith and God) is God has similar aspects from all faiths.  All loving, all caring and in a way the parent to us all because with out God there wouldn't be an us.  Now if we look at it in that way then if God was a good parent he/she would punish us right?  A good parent doesn't say "I love you.  Do what you want.  Run into the street, hit people, fight, curse etc."  A good parent will punish their child.  They do it out of love.  Yes, karma, we get what we put out, but who allows that?  God, that is if you believe God is all powerful and opulent.

I dunno my two cents.  

[misfitguy]

My belief on God punishing us, is that it is just to much form me to accept that a benevolent God will cause pain and sorrow.  He gave us free will and a soul.  If we nourish our soul with prayer, recognition of God and good acts, our soul will help us as a guide to do the right things every second of every minute of the day.  If we don't nourish our soul, we become guideless, but we still have free will.  So now every decision of every second of every day is dependent on ourselves, exclusively.  This is where we create our own sorrow and pain...most of the time. 

Of course we live in a dynamic of 5 billion people and each of them have free will and each of them can cause pain and sorrow to others.  To suggest that God stirs this soup of humanity up to teach me a lesson would be arrogant of me.  Fate and kismet suggest that there is a plan that we can't circumvent, which would then eliminate any free will.  Karma is used to explain what has happened and not what will happen.  I can't accept that God is involved with each of my decisions I make except through my soul which was a gift from God and that is what makes us different from other animals.

Mick

[Husker Du]

My belief on God punishing us, is that it is just to much form me to accept that a benevolent God will cause pain and sorrow.  He gave us free will and a soul.  If we nourish our soul with prayer, recognition of God and good acts, our soul will help us as a guide to do the right things every second of every minute of the day.  If we don't nourish our soul, we become guideless, but we still have free will.  So now every decision of every second of every day is dependent on ourselves, exclusively.  This is where we create our own sorrow and pain...most of the time. 

Of course we live in a dynamic of 5 billion people and each of them have free will and each of them can cause pain and sorrow to others.  To suggest that God stirs this soup of humanity up to teach me a lesson would be arrogant of me.  Fate and kismet suggest that there is a plan that we can't circumvent, which would then eliminate any free will.  Karma is used to explain what has happened and not what will happen.  I can't accept that God is involved with each of my decisions I make except through my soul which was a gift from God and that is what makes us different from other animals.

Mick

Animals don't have souls?
And when a loving parent is punishing a child are they really causing pain and sorrow?

[misfitguy]

The answers to your question is no and yes.

What separates us from the animals, what makes us human is our knowledge of God.  The gift God gave us is logic and rationality so that we can know Him and a soul.  It is nice to think that it is so, but there is no sign of a soul in an animal.

When a parent punishes a child, of course there is pain and sorrow.  Maybe you are different than me, but I never once loved my Mother more because she spanked me or my Father more because he mindlessly berated me.  If you experienced any of these things, did they give you comfort?  A parent should give guidance and direction and never punishment.  I once took my daughters drivers license away from her for a month because she had a beer at a party.  It wasn't punishment.  It was guidance and direction.  I had to take her to school everyday for a month.  She couldn't drive.  A lesson that twenty years later, she still talks about. 

Corporal punishment has never worked, other than to create fear in a person. 

[Husker Du]

The answers to your question is no and yes.

What separates us from the animals, what makes us human is our knowledge of God.  The gift God gave us is logic and rationality so that we can know Him and a soul.  It is nice to think that it is so, but there is no sign of a soul in an animal.

When a parent punishes a child, of course there is pain and sorrow.  Maybe you are different than me, but I never once loved my Mother more because she spanked me or my Father more because he mindlessly berated me.  If you experienced any of these things, did they give you comfort?  A parent should give guidance and direction and never punishment.  I once took my daughters drivers license away from her for a month because she had a beer at a party.  It wasn't punishment.  It was guidance and direction.  I had to take her to school everyday for a month.  She couldn't drive.  A lesson that twenty years later, she still talks about.  

Corporal punishment has never worked, other than to create fear in a person.  

I agree with you on your first sentence about animals.  But to say there is no sign of a soul in an animal is interesting to me.  Do you feel that way about the mentally challenged?  Some don't have the ability to have knowledge, logic or rationality to know about God (Whether it's a him or a her).  So do they have souls?  We feel pain.  Animals feel pain.  There are many indications that animals feel joy, and many feelings we feel.  Animals have languages to speak to each other, just like us.  If someone speaks a language you don't understand, do they not have a soul to you?  

A parent should never give punishment?  That's the kind of mentality to me that is what is failing our society I believe.  "Don't give kids an F in red ink, it hurts their feelings !  There are no losers in sports, you all win just because you tried.  Your bank failed, so heres a bail out.  You failed to be a citizen so heres another tailored politician."  When you fail, or do something wrong there are consequences.  Thats life.  Punishment doesn't always have to be physical.   About your daughter, you may think that it wasn't a punishment but I highly doubt she saw it that way.  That is a punishment.  You took something away from her that she liked.  Guidance and direction would be sitting her down and telling her the statistics on drunk driving, or any personal stories you have about drinking.

Corporal punishment could be a whole other thread.  I'm not one for physical punishment though.

At the moment I didn't love being punished.  What kid does?  But now that I'm older I fully appreciate it.  It fears me to think what I would have turned out like if my Mother didn't punish me !

I think to believe that God wouldn't punish in some way or another is not a practical way to look at it.  It's the soft way to look at.  Kind of like when Christians only pick certain parts of the Bible to hold up but forget or do not mention other parts.  

[misfitguy]

I agree with you on your first sentence about animals.  But to say there is no sign of a soul in an animal is interesting to me.  Do you feel that way about the mentally challenged?  Some don't have the ability to have knowledge, logic or rationality to know about God (Whether it's a him or a her).  So do they have souls?  We feel pain.  Animals feel pain.  There are many indications that animals feel joy, and many feelings we feel.  Animals have languages to speak to each other, just like us.  If someone speaks a language you don't understand, do they not have a soul to you?  

Obviously, your definition of a soul and my definition of a soul are not the same.  The soul is an entity or maybe thought of as an organ or most importantly a part of us that was given to us by God so we could know Him and communicate with Him and get directions from Him.  It is what separates us from the animals.  It is what makes us Human with a capital H.  That and the gift of logic and rational thinking that God gave us so we could know him.  I am an animal lover and most my life have had dogs, cats, birds, fish and even reptiles in my life and have cried when I lost one and am ever being joyed over their actions.  But I surely don't suggest they have a soul.

A parent should never give punishment?  That's the kind of mentality to me that is what is failing our society I believe.  "Don't give kids an F in red ink, it hurts their feelings !  There are no losers in sports, you all win just because you tried.  Your bank failed, so heres a bail out.  You failed to be a citizen so heres another tailored politician."  When you fail, or do something wrong there are consequences.  Thats life.  Punishment doesn't always have to be physical.   About your daughter, you may think that it wasn't a punishment but I highly doubt she saw it that way.  That is a punishment.  You took something away from her that she liked.  Guidance and direction would be sitting her down and telling her the statistics on drunk driving, or any personal stories you have about drinking.

Of course you give an F it it is deserved.  Of course their are losers in sports.  I can't quite get the reach to banks?  Many fail, but the most recent failing of our financial and the bailout was the result of a banking system that the fascists had eliminated oversight and the bailout was an attempt to keep it from failing and forcing us, meaning the public that depends on credit, to fail with it.  It is one of the things a government can do for us as well as build roads, and proved police protection. Where did you get the idea I didn't think that what I did to my daughter wasn't punishment.  Of course it was, but I didn't beat her. And during the days she didn't have a license and keys, it gave her a constant reminder why what she did simply wasn't good for her and it gave me and her and opportunity to discuss why a 16 year old shouldn't drink or drink and drive.  My 16 year old step-son destroyed his shoes we had bought him 3 weeks earlier, wading in mud fishing and wanted a new pair.  I told him that wouldn't happen and suggested he find a job.  He got a paper route, which he maintained for two years and passed onto his younger brother and when he was 19, while visiting, he pointed at this shoes and said, "Do you know where I got these shoes from?"  When I said no, he told me it was the pair he had bought with his own money from the paper route and obviously he had learned something from it. 

Corporal punishment could be a whole other thread.  I'm not one for physical punishment though.

At the moment I didn't love being punished.  What kid does?  But now that I'm older I fully appreciate it.  It fears me to think what I would have turned out like if my Mother didn't punish me !

Please, share with us.  How did your Mother punish you?

I think to believe that God wouldn't punish in some way or another is not a practical way to look at it.  It's the soft way to look at.  Kind of like when Christians only pick certain parts of the Bible to hold up but forget or do not mention other parts.  

If you believe that God punishes you do you also believe that God rewards you?  If so, how does he punish and how does he reward?  It boggles my mind even trying to think about it.  The only reward we need is the logic and rationality and our soul that He gave us.  He gave us free will.  Anything else is fate, not planned but the result of 5.1 billion individuals with free will living with each other.

Mick

[Husker Du]

I agree with you on your first sentence about animals.  But to say there is no sign of a soul in an animal is interesting to me.  Do you feel that way about the mentally challenged?  Some don't have the ability to have knowledge, logic or rationality to know about God (Whether it's a him or a her).  So do they have souls?  We feel pain.  Animals feel pain.  There are many indications that animals feel joy, and many feelings we feel.  Animals have languages to speak to each other, just like us.  If someone speaks a language you don't understand, do they not have a soul to you? 

Obviously, your definition of a soul and my definition of a soul are not the same.  The soul is an entity or maybe thought of as an organ or most importantly a part of us that was given to us by God so we could know Him and communicate with Him and get directions from Him.  It is what separates us from the animals.  It is what makes us Human with a capital H.  That and the gift of logic and rational thinking that God gave us so we could know him.  I am an animal lover and most my life have had dogs, cats, birds, fish and even reptiles in my life and have cried when I lost one and am ever being joyed over their actions.  But I surely don't suggest they have a soul.

A parent should never give punishment?  That's the kind of mentality to me that is what is failing our society I believe.  "Don't give kids an F in red ink, it hurts their feelings !  There are no losers in sports, you all win just because you tried.  Your bank failed, so heres a bail out.  You failed to be a citizen so heres another tailored politician."  When you fail, or do something wrong there are consequences.  Thats life.  Punishment doesn't always have to be physical.   About your daughter, you may think that it wasn't a punishment but I highly doubt she saw it that way.  That is a punishment.  You took something away from her that she liked.  Guidance and direction would be sitting her down and telling her the statistics on drunk driving, or any personal stories you have about drinking.

Of course you give an F it it is deserved.  Of course their are losers in sports.  I can't quite get the reach to banks?  Many fail, but the most recent failing of our financial and the bailout was the result of a banking system that the fascists had eliminated oversight and the bailout was an attempt to keep it from failing and forcing us, meaning the public that depends on credit, to fail with it.  It is one of the things a government can do for us as well as build roads, and proved police protection. Where did you get the idea I didn't think that what I did to my daughter wasn't punishment.  Of course it was, but I didn't beat her. And during the days she didn't have a license and keys, it gave her a constant reminder why what she did simply wasn't good for her and it gave me and her and opportunity to discuss why a 16 year old shouldn't drink or drink and drive.  My 16 year old step-son destroyed his shoes we had bought him 3 weeks earlier, wading in mud fishing and wanted a new pair.  I told him that wouldn't happen and suggested he find a job.  He got a paper route, which he maintained for two years and passed onto his younger brother and when he was 19, while visiting, he pointed at this shoes and said, "Do you know where I got these shoes from?"  When I said no, he told me it was the pair he had bought with his own money from the paper route and obviously he had learned something from it. 

Corporal punishment could be a whole other thread.  I'm not one for physical punishment though.

At the moment I didn't love being punished.  What kid does?  But now that I'm older I fully appreciate it.  It fears me to think what I would have turned out like if my Mother didn't punish me !

Please, share with us.  How did your Mother punish you?

I think to believe that God wouldn't punish in some way or another is not a practical way to look at it.  It's the soft way to look at.  Kind of like when Christians only pick certain parts of the Bible to hold up but forget or do not mention other parts. 

If you believe that God punishes you do you also believe that God rewards you?  If so, how does he punish and how does he reward?  It boggles my mind even trying to think about it.  The only reward we need is the logic and rationality and our soul that He gave us.  He gave us free will.  Anything else is fate, not planned but the result of 5.1 billion individuals with free will living with each other.

Mick

Yes we do have a different definition of the soul.  I believe the soul is separate entity from the material world where as you view it as more like an organ tying it to the material world.  The soul is part and parcel with God to me.  It's not a gift from God but apart of God (don't mistake that as me saying I think we are God ourselves, or on the same level as God because I don't think that and I'm not saying that !).  Kind of like the way a sun ray is apart of the sun.  I believe that yes we are different from animals on a consciousness level in the sense that we are given the gift, chance to learn and know about God if we choose to but the animal has a soul as well.  If you take God's gift and use it to live like a dog, then you will get a dog body in the next life.  If all you do is use the gift to eat, sleep, defend, and have sex then you are no different than an animal and you will be granted a body that will let you live out what you want. What is making them live though?  Just science?  How does God fit into that?  We can agree with out the soul the body is just dead mass right?  Well then what is keeping animals from being dead mass?  You didn't answer any of my questions regarding things that are signs that animals have souls and I'm still curious on how you feel about humans who are disabled who don't have this logic or rationality that you use as a claim to say we have souls.  Do they have souls?  You mention logic and rationality again.  Yet some mentally challenged don't have that.  Do they have souls? 

Where did I get the idea that you didn't think what you did to your daughter was punishment?
I'm pretty sure you typed this in this thread :

" A parent should give guidance and direction and never punishment.  I once took my daughters drivers license away from her for a month because she had a beer at a party.  It wasn't punishment.  It was guidance and direction."

So I got the idea directly from you.  Not only did you say it wasn't punishment you said a parent should never punish their children.  And beat her?  I never defined punishment as just beatings.  It's broader than that as even you are now admitting.  Now imagine what your kids would have been like if you didn't punish them? 

How my Mother punished me depended on the situation, and isn't really relevant to this conversation anyways.  But I turned out better for the punishments, just like I'm sure your kids are for the punishments you gave to them.

I can't wrap my mind around the idea that God is a bad parent, or entity that is bad at caring for it's creation, for itself.  Isn't fate something that is planned?  To leave it all up to the result of 5.1 billion individuals with freewill is very interesting to me.  I believe in freewill but to eliminate God from the equation and put it all on us is just a concept that is hard for me to digest.  God can punish in many ways.  Some very big and obvious ways, and some very small ways that you might not notice at first and of course with punishment with there are also rewards if you do well.  Those rewards could come in this lifetime, or your next. 

Then again these are just my beliefs and I try not to make it out as the way it is, and how it is.  For all I know I could be wrong, and you can be wrong too, or we can both be wrong.

[misfitguy]

We seem to be dancing on the head of a needle.  So I have to ask you some clarifying questions.

- When you talk about God punishing us, do you included natural disasters?

- Are the signs of punishment in your belief system something that makes us uncomfortable, such as disease or hunger or disabilities? ( I ask  you this because you suggested that my definition of the soul wouldn't work with a mentally challenged individual, so I need to know what you consider punishment by God)

- You believe in reincarnation.  That belief is found in Buddhism and Hinduism and maybe some other Oriental religions.  Which do you come from?

-You are right concerning "fate".  By definition, it means some sort of predetermined path so I retract the word.  What I was looking for was "Que sera sera", "whatever will be, will be" as an old Doris Day song once said.  So that sentence would read, "Anything else is que sera sera".

- I am curious, can you wrap you mind around predestination?  Or predestination with evolution thrown into the mix?  Predestination is the one that boggles my mind.  Look at Mark Sanford, Gov. of SC, and his claims that he is only doing what God wants him to do.  Can you wrap your mind around that sort of thinking?

Mick

I thought I had answered your questions about animals quite well.  I told you I am an animal lover and as I type, my dog, Cricket, is laying next to me, as she always does.  She shows me unconditional love everyday, but I don't see it as a sign of a soul.  I don't relate love and soul at all.  Our soul directs us and guides us if we are able or willing to listen to it.  Part of our free will is that we can choose to ignore it.  We can choose to not nourish it so it becomes weak.  You seem to be confusing love and kindness and intelligence with our soul.  Why is that?

[EdisonBoy]

I realize that not everyone on the blog is a Baha'i, but I think there is another way of looking at this that I can point out from my Baha'i point of view without offending anyone - I hope.  I use a metaphor.

When I was a child, I hated getting shots.  They hurt.  I didn't understand that my parents were protecting me from disease, I thought of the shots as punishment.  I even went as far, while riding in the car to the doctor's office, to try to bargain with my parents, telling them that I would be good if they wouldn't make me get the shots.  No dice, I got the shots.   

Now, older and wiser, I know that the shots were good for me in ways that as a child I could not understand.  So it is with hardship; it is not punishment, it is "spiritual fertilizer."  It is given to us by God, in His wisdom, to strengthen and nurture us in ways that we cannot understand.

[JippiJ]

Hi Guys,

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading through this post and have found it fantastic to see such opinions stacked next to one and other. I do feel at times there was a little wandering off the original question of "Does God punish?" but it was warranted to further your arguments.

From my own perspective I kind of think that God's Reward/Punishment was Free Will and Knowing.

Take for example the argument of does the animal have a soul? The animal does not have to watch the news and see some of the awful attrocities that happen around the world be them natural disasters or man made wars aka Afghan.
Becuase I was given free will and knowing I can relate to the loss of life on such grand scales and feel the pain and empathy that comes with them.
Recently In my area a Gun Man "Derek Bird" ran wild and shot dead 12 people many of whom I knew personally. To reflect on this and suggest that the pain I feel in some ways is a punishment sent from God is absurd but then the fact that he gave Derek Bird the free will to go and commit such an act means that there is a connection between God's actions and my pain. Is it a punishment? Well I guess it depends on perspective.

To know that you act with the best intentions and true convictions in your heart means that you are using free will in the best way possible.
When and if I make a mistake I do expect to be both guided and punished as they are one and the same thing to me. Depending on the severity of my actions dictate the severity of the guidance/punishment. Example:

1. Covert my friends possesions.
Punishment/Guidance = Not having the understanding to realise that if I try hard and put in as much effort in to my every day as I do into being jealous I might actually achieve or attain the thing that I covert.

2. Murder.
Punishment/Guidance = One way ticket to hell, lest I repent my sins, in one form or another.

The heaven and Hell finish the argument for me. A god who does not punish would not create a place where the soul is to be locked and tortured for ever more. No matter how you explain it there is a punishment in the form of Hell which makes it an absolute.

So yes I think God does punish but I'm greatful that God does.

Not quite as well reasoned as you guys but I hope my point comes across.

Jip

[misfitguy]

Jip,

Good to see you back.  Sorry to hear about your friends plight. 

I read your post with interest and a lot of head nodding until you got to the part about 'hell'.  I know, it is a core belief of Christians and Moslems that Hell exists as a place, which is usually referred to down, of course, with heaven being up.  I can understand your conclusion with this belief, but, since I don't accept a physical, burning Hell, I can't make the same leap as you. 

I do understand the basic Christian theology of Heaven and Hell, but, to quote me from the above posts, I can't get my mind around it.  As I came to understand it, when I attended a Christian church in my late teens, we don't exist, then we are conceived, then we live and by the mercy of God and the forgiveness granted to us by the death of Jesus of Nazareth, we are then, spiritually shuffled off to Heaven or if we have refused to accept the gift of Redemption, then to Hell.  This surely would be a God that punishes and does so in a big way. 

We are told by Baha'u'llah that our soul is on an eternal journey.  This life is but one of the stops along the way and our goal is to attain a station close to God, for this surely will be Heaven.  Of course in the inverse, Hell would be the furthest from God.  I have oversimplified this as I did the Christian theology, but I did get the essence of our Heaven and Hell.

Our existence in this life is all about how we live it, not what we believe in.  That is how we see the realm of God.  Our beliefs have little value.  Only the Truths of God have value and each us is expected to search for these truths.  We call it the 'individual investigation for the Truths of God', and it is a quest that each of us should dedicate our lives.  Christ said, "I have many things to share with you that you would not understand..."  God has not shared His existence with us or even what eternity means.  We can only try to comprehend what is to come. 

I am OK with other peoples beliefs until they hurt other people.  The fundamental Christian and Moslem and Buddhist and Hindu, and any others that dogmatically have justified their actions in the name of God, are wrong.  Probably, as you mentioned, the biggest punishment we have received from God is the ability to become "self" righteous without the ability to differentiate righteousness from self righteousness. 

I am glad you have messaged.  I hope we will see more of you.

Mick
 

[The William]

I am... Unsure of my role in creation. I am reaching out to know my purpose. I have been granted power of creation, the will and essence needed to alter reality. I have seen the proof of my delusions. There are those in my life that KNOW beyond doubt i am Nad. And yet there are those in my life that KNOW beyond doubt that my knowledge of Creation, of which i have come face to face with as a conscious realm, is true, and good. There are those that do not see me as any kind of Evil, but i ask, are they deveived? Am i a deveiver? THE DECEIVER, perhaps? Yes, i have lied, to have lost count of them, and i have been at one point every sin, in my intemperate youth, i have been almost every aspect of humanity, both good and bad. My greatest wish is to unify humanity through laughter, and wisdoms gained in my trials, and i have been ever so tested. But we come now to the year where all of creation as we perceive it is bending to our wills, and i do fesr that i am to be an evil, a destroyer, rather than a light, and a hope. I do not want any of this, i want simply to be insane, and broken, but i will not, and refuse to, relinquish responsibility for myself, or my truth, if it is indeed my truth to be an apex human. An alpha of spiritual consciousness. Which i seem to be. I will not fail humanity if i am tp be a goodness, but how do i end my influence if am not of God, but of Sin?